Bonuses to saving throws against mind-effecting not impacting fear saves?

Emoteen

Area name: Helmsborder (but likely everywhere with howls, possibly fear saves in general)
Issue Location: Will saving throws against fear
Quest Name: n/a
Store Name: n/a
NPC Name: n/a
NPC Location: n/a
Server Version: 8687
Screen Shot: mind effecting.jpg
Time: https://www.timeanddate.com/
12:30am US Central, March 20, 2025

Issue Description: Saving throws against fear only incorporating base will save plus fear-specific bonuses. Bonuses to saving throws for mind effecting are not added in.

Example: Kalen bonus of +4 (will of 2, and +2 from ring of blood Moon), meanwhile, the additional +4 versus mind effecting aren't added in.

Zolm

@Emoteen Fear isnt a will save. Saves VS fear are a separate stat.

Swifty Willownall

Actually, fear is a mind effecting trait. This is just at a glance but, all the bonuses should be stacking and adding up. And yes, fear is a will save. I've never seen it be anything but a will save.

Zolm

@Swifty-Willownall except mind-affecting and vs Fear are apparently separated in the game for some moronic reason

Swifty Willownall

Mmhmm. They are different in the fact that Fear is but one of the mind effecting conditions, and mind-effecting encompasses several other conditions, but any bonuses to mind-effecting should stack with any bonuses to Fear as saving throw bonuses stack. (Up to +20)

Mr.Moloch

Not a bug; these are separate categories.

jalafoon

What the hell does will save against?
Mind affecting?
Fear?

I feel like I need a Venn diagram for this

SpiffyMeister

@jalafoon

Right!

Will checks against all mind effecting spells, including fear.

The formula is: Will + Mind Effecting (for hold person), Will + fear (for fear based effects). There's a few negative energy spells that use will for Will + Negative Energy. Only one or two really come to mind. There is also Will; + Sonic. And will + divine. Will + Electrical (for Gedlee's loop)

I imagine the DM team will eventually add Will + Psychic saves for the new damage types introduced.

Formula for Fortitude is:

Fortitude + Death, Fortitude + disease, Fortitude + poison, Fortitude + acid/fire/cold.

Basically, the + status/element saves are added to the fortitude/will/reflex save to give a less powerful, more specialized option for the DM team to make loot.

jalafoon

@SpiffyMeister so the blurb that Swifty posted was only about immunities then?
If you are immune to mind affecting statuses (from a clarity pot) then you should be immune to fear too?
Even though the bonus against mind affecting doesn't apply?

SpiffyMeister

@jalafoon Clarity will block the fear effect, it will not remove the fear effect.

Swifty Willownall

@jalafoon

I'm saying that Fear is a subcategory of mind-effecting. Mind-effecting encompasses many things, including fear. So anything that gives a bonus to mind-effecting will also give a bonus to fear. It -should- also give a bonus to charm, confused, dazed, and everything else beneath mind-effecting.

There are three main types of saves. Reflex, Fort, and Will. Mind-effecting is a category of Will save, and fear is a subcategory of mind-effecting. As Spiffy said, clarity will block the fear effect because it makes you immune to mind-effecting conditions. It will not remove the fear effect, but will remove some specific other effects as stated in the clarity spell.

Mr.Moloch

@Swifty-Willownall Will has subcategories, mind saving throws do not.

This is not a bug. This is how the system works. I'm not rewriting all the code to make it work either. ;)

jalafoon

@Swifty-Willownall

But thats not how the save throw was described.

Its Will + X. Thats it

For a fear save X = + Save vs. Fear
For a daze save X = +Save vs. Mind-affecting

There is no subcategory where Fear IS a subcategory of Mind-Affecting

Mr.Moloch

Anyway, not a bug - locking this topic to save people the energy of talking about subcategories of subcategories. Go roll dice with me in game nerds!