Bonuses to saving throws against mind-effecting not impacting fear saves?

[Emoteen]

Area name: Helmsborder (but likely everywhere with howls, possibly fear saves in general)
Issue Location: Will saving throws against fear
Quest Name: n/a
Store Name: n/a
NPC Name: n/a
NPC Location: n/a
Server Version: 8687
Screen Shot:
Time: https://www.timeanddate.com/
12:30am US Central, March 20, 2025

Issue Description: Saving throws against fear only incorporating base will save plus fear-specific bonuses. Bonuses to saving throws for mind effecting are not added in.

Example: Kalen bonus of +4 (will of 2, and +2 from ring of blood Moon), meanwhile, the additional +4 versus mind effecting aren't added in.

[Zolm]

@Emoteen Fear isnt a will save. Saves VS fear are a separate stat.

[Swifty Willownall]

Actually, fear is a mind effecting trait. This is just at a glance but, all the bonuses should be stacking and adding up. And yes, fear is a will save. I've never seen it be anything but a will save.

[Zolm]

@Swifty-Willownall except mind-affecting and vs Fear are apparently separated in the game for some moronic reason

[Swifty Willownall]

Mmhmm. They are different in the fact that Fear is but one of the mind effecting conditions, and mind-effecting encompasses several other conditions, but any bonuses to mind-effecting should stack with any bonuses to Fear as saving throw bonuses stack. (Up to +20)

[Mr.Moloch]

Not a bug; these are separate categories.

[jalafoon]

What the hell does will save against?
Mind affecting?
Fear?

I feel like I need a Venn diagram for this

[SpiffyMeister]

@jalafoon

Right!

Will checks against all mind effecting spells, including fear.

The formula is: Will + Mind Effecting (for hold person), Will + fear (for fear based effects). There's a few negative energy spells that use will for Will + Negative Energy. Only one or two really come to mind. There is also Will; + Sonic. And will + divine. Will + Electrical (for Gedlee's loop)

I imagine the DM team will eventually add Will + Psychic saves for the new damage types introduced.

Formula for Fortitude is:

Fortitude + Death, Fortitude + disease, Fortitude + poison, Fortitude + acid/fire/cold.

Basically, the + status/element saves are added to the fortitude/will/reflex save to give a less powerful, more specialized option for the DM team to make loot.

[jalafoon]

@SpiffyMeister so the blurb that Swifty posted was only about immunities then?
If you are immune to mind affecting statuses (from a clarity pot) then you should be immune to fear too?
Even though the bonus against mind affecting doesn't apply?

[SpiffyMeister]

@jalafoon Clarity will block the fear effect, it will not remove the fear effect.

[Swifty Willownall]

@jalafoon

I'm saying that Fear is a subcategory of mind-effecting. Mind-effecting encompasses many things, including fear. So anything that gives a bonus to mind-effecting will also give a bonus to fear. It -should- also give a bonus to charm, confused, dazed, and everything else beneath mind-effecting.

There are three main types of saves. Reflex, Fort, and Will. Mind-effecting is a category of Will save, and fear is a subcategory of mind-effecting. As Spiffy said, clarity will block the fear effect because it makes you immune to mind-effecting conditions. It will not remove the fear effect, but will remove some specific other effects as stated in the clarity spell.

[Mr.Moloch]

@Swifty-Willownall Will has subcategories, mind saving throws do not.

This is not a bug. This is how the system works. I'm not rewriting all the code to make it work either. ;)

[jalafoon]

@Swifty-Willownall

But thats not how the save throw was described.

Its Will + X. Thats it

For a fear save X = + Save vs. Fear
For a daze save X = +Save vs. Mind-affecting

There is no subcategory where Fear IS a subcategory of Mind-Affecting

[Mr.Moloch]

Anyway, not a bug - locking this topic to save people the energy of talking about subcategories of subcategories. Go roll dice with me in game nerds!