General Discussion Regarding Loot Levels and Storyteller Freedom
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I think these are interesting!
(huh that single use should be charges... oops!)
This is some quest loot.
(Those alchemists fire, are actually alchemists acid and apply acid damage, cos green)
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The discussion here is mostly about DM loot. I don't really have many complaints about quest loot, particularly because I don't quest enough to know much about them. From what I've seen, some of the weapons and armor are pretty good!
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Hey folks! Read through and just gonna input my own two cents.
Honestly, I agree with what Ace is saying. I get that faction loot should be really good. But there's very, very little that compares. Even DM loot you get tends to be worse than even the tier 2 stuff. Even loot you worked hard for... However, I think that my biggest gripe comes from:
- to have all that nullified because "I want that additional 1 AC bud" is a problem. Its a roleplaying game, and we've just traded roleplay for stats.
The problem here is that the loot from faction stuff is just vastly, vastly superior. This means that even high end stuff that you can find on hard quests and long adventures and the like are pretty much worthless outside of their prestige points. Also, it severely, severely cripples anyone that wants to do something other than play one of the factions. While yes, I get that it's best to have people within the main dm-plot driven factions, to have it that different should be changed.
I can only really see this in the armor sets between what you can find, craft, and get from factions. And honestly, it's a pretty simple solution. Just buff crafting gear. Don't make it overwhelming by any means but... Just tack on a simple +1 ac onto mithril/adamantium armor, and the high end leathers, and cloth. I don't know why it's not there in the first place, and it really should be. This wouldn't disassociate from the issue that Lord Acererak brought up, because even with a +1 tacked on, that gear is still going to be worse than faction gear (faction gear is pretty crazy). Aaaand that represents a good payout for a really big investment in crafting.
TL;DR: please make the high end crafting armors better to better balance out non-faction wear. Will still be worse than faction gear, but a simple +1 ac on the armors you can craft would mean it's a bit less shoehorny and lets you play stuff outside of factions.
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+1 AC being added to Adamantine and Mithril armor is a great change. I hope we can see more freedom in w/e "pros and con" matrix DMs use to give out gear as well!
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@Acemvi said in General Discussion Regarding Loot Levels and Storyteller Freedom:
Adamantine and Mithril armor
+1 AC is added only Mithril. I have another thing to do for adamantine.
If the power would stay on at my house I might get it done today. -
No offense lord Moleman, but i'd never wear ANY of that. What's missing is some awesome creativity items and it sucks to see the loot level so low you can't play with any of that shit. I saw some amazing items in the past, like a sword that was +5 enhancement, but -6 ab and damage. Why was it good? Because it would cut through any di without ever becoming TRULY good... As it is, loot level is so shit that making any interesting items anyone would want to use becomes impossible.
I suggested a while back, a system that would truly fix all of this. Give people an item, a mundane item, with a history. Then you could add in things, tiny, miniscule things, like tokens, that DMs could name "+2 discipline" (Or whatever), and add it to the lootpile, you could limit this to only a couple, or even a single, token per dm quest/event. A player who won it could then choose to add it ti a DM loot of his choice. These would then add up, making the player's piece become more powerful and more special every time AND making even miniscule things like +1 to a skill feel like they were actually a reward that people would WANT, because they'd add up. This makes it infinitely easier for s storyteller to make loot of this kind.
Additional bonus, the storyteller could write down a bit of history behind each item and adjust the loot piece.
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What I used to do as a storyteller, and feel free to either steal this idea or call it stupid, was I used to create limited use items that were not items. For example:
A Boost of Confidence Following Your Victory - this is not an item but instead represents the confidence gained from a hard won battle. For a short time you will be able to remember the fear of death and the thrill of victory and draw upon that emotion for a future battle. (Limited charges of one or various spells).
A Primal Bloodlust - this is not an item but represents the carnal thirst for battle the manifests itself as an animalistic roar. Even from a less intimidating source, this burst of fury can terrify unsuspecting foes. (Limited uses of fear or battlecry)
A smug sense of self-confidence - you were recently proven right and it has inflated your ego. For a short time you have more pride and bravado in your step and are more able to call upon your superior intellect to win arguments (limited uses of Fox cunning/eagles splendor/identify)
These were essentially glorified consumables but were customized and personalized to the character based on their history.
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@CitizenBane said in General Discussion Regarding Loot Levels and Storyteller Freedom:
No offense lord Moleman, but i'd never wear ANY of that. What's missing is some awesome creativity items and it sucks to see the loot level so low you can't play with any of that shit. I saw some amazing items in the past, like a sword that was +5 enhancement, but -6 ab and damage. Why was it good? Because it would cut through any di without ever becoming TRULY good... As it is, loot level is so shit that making any interesting items anyone would want to use becomes impossible.
I suggested a while back, a system that would truly fix all of this. Give people an item, a mundane item, with a history. Then you could add in things, tiny, miniscule things, like tokens, that DMs could name "+2 discipline" (Or whatever), and add it to the lootpile, you could limit this to only a couple, or even a single, token per dm quest/event. A player who won it could then choose to add it ti a DM loot of his choice. These would then add up, making the player's piece become more powerful and more special every time AND making even miniscule things like +1 to a skill feel like they were actually a reward that people would WANT, because they'd add up. This makes it infinitely easier for s storyteller to make loot of this kind.
Additional bonus, the storyteller could write down a bit of history behind each item and adjust the loot piece.
This would eventually end up with items that had +5 vs abberations +1 AB, +3 vs orcs +2 vs evil +2 vs chaotic +d4 Fire damage + d4 acid damage + 2 cold damage +6 massive criticals +d6 piercing damage.
Unless we added a limit to the number of things you can add, which then kinda makes it a bit boring and ruins the idea behind it.
It's a cool idea, but not as simple as just, doing that. And most solutions I can think of off hand pretty much ruin the idea behind it.
(Also, the frog loot wasn't an example of powerful loot, it was an example of something with a bit more to it, something interesting. I guess frog stuff aint interesting enuf :( )
> !!!MOLES for the MOLE GOD!!!
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@Zool Would you say your idea really..
Croaked?
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@Zool don't worry I found the loot ribbeting.
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Well, I guess I toadally asked for that, just hopping I'll live it down one day.
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Not to leapfrog past the discussion, but I'm generally in favor of simple solutions rather than adding to Zool's already considerable workload. Updating whatever loot matrices that Storytellers use so they can give out more interesting items and expanding the "loot cap" from +1 with upsides to something more would be easier, I think.
This said, a broader discussion to be had here is the importance of a number of Admins not having a ton of experience with video games, which is ostensibly what NWN is. CoA might be a roleplay server, but you cannot divorce it entirely from its foundation as a video game. Basic game design concepts are falling by the wayside in adherence to a not incomprehensible but ultimately flawed vision of "how things should be."
Case in point, if rank 2 faction gear is the best possible gear that players can normally get, you're denying player progression in this regard once they've fully joined a faction. And player progression is absolutely necessary in order to maintain player interest in a video game. We can wax philosophical about how CoA is "about the RP" and everything else is simply not as important, but RP only happens with players, and players do not stick around without player progression.
tl;dr You cannot build a house on sand.
"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." - Albert Camus
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@Acemvi said in General Discussion Regarding Loot Levels and Storyteller Freedom:
Not to leapfrog past the discussion, but I'm generally in favor of simple solutions rather than adding to Zool's already considerable workload. Updating whatever loot matrices that Storytellers use so they can give out more interesting items and expanding the "loot cap" from +1 with upsides to something more would be easier, I think.
This said, a broader discussion to be had here is the importance of a number of Admins not having a ton of experience with video games, which is ostensibly what NWN is. CoA might be a roleplay server, but you cannot divorce it entirely from its foundation as a video game. Basic game design concepts are falling by the wayside in adherence to a not incomprehensible but ultimately flawed vision of "how things should be."
Case in point, if rank 2 faction gear is the best possible gear that players can normally get, you're denying player progression in this regard once they've fully joined a faction. And player progression is absolutely necessary in order to maintain player interest in a video game. We can wax philosophical about how CoA is "about the RP" and everything else is simply not as important, but RP only happens with players, and players do not stick around without player progression.
tl;dr You cannot build a house on sand.
There isn't actually any rank 2 loot, really.
All the faction loot is now in the prestige store.
There is, faction prestige store loot (which is a progression, just based on prestige) and then, DM crafted loot which you may or may not get when gaining ranks.
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Faction ranks confuse me, but you get my point.
Embracing NWN being a video game makes things easier for everyone. A convoluted vision of adventurers only having nigh-mundane gear unless sponsored by a faction, at which point they get mildly enchanted gear that is also the best possible gear they can get, works well in the fiction of a low magic setting, but not in a video game.
At some point it becomes time to recognize whatever vision for the server that currently exists simply doesn't seem terribly appealing to a lot of players. We're hitting maybe 11 at our peak lately, and this isn't a "summer lull." If player numbers are to go up, thereby fostering more RP, something has to change.
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Since there's been talk of designing new quest loot, thought I'd bring this up here:
I think craftable gear (especially armor) could use a slight bump in power level. In lieu of this, I'm also of the opinion that 7 - 10 quests should be quite a bit harder than they are now, so that the quest loot you find in them can be on par with better craftable gear (anything under mithril, for instance).
Likewise, 6 - 9 quests should drop gear that's roughly on par with non-top tier craftable gear. 4 - 6 quests should really focus more on useful consumables.
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6-9s should be harder as well, only quests that really pose a hard challenge are frost giant optional and frozen war
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@Ethika Well, those are 7-10s so they should be the challenge haha.
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@sharkinajar Yeah but they are really the only hard quests on the server, would be fun to have a variety and better loot as a result of completing them as ace said.
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@Ethika Agree with that though! The loot needs a bit of a looking at across the board- through all the quests and all the tables and whatnot.
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I want more super long 4-10s with multiple stop points. It would be nice if you got to the 20 minute point you were afforded 1 ending, and then every 30 minutes a different ending, so you could in theory just spend 5 hours doing 1 quest for some cool rewards.
Like a big hole in the ground.
With loot.
But as you dig it becomes a crypt, then a ... bigger crypt.. then a mind.. now we're in the Underdark.. Ohshit a portal to the Abyss! Ah, now we're in the Historic district.
