Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.
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The problem is that the RNG seems to ramp up to ensure npc's hit more often no matter how high your ac is. I know this was a thing during V5, maybe it followed over or something, but the problem is currently that fighters cannot remotely compete with spell casters who can just buff up and demolish anything put in front of them (or buff up the 2h fighter to do the same).
As it stands the cost of healing incoming damage is vastly outweighed by the value of buff 'n kill which leads people to pursue that path because why wouldn't you?
I'm trying to put forward ideas that make classes that don't currently make the cut into something more enjoyable to play without a ton of work to make them that way.
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Sounds to me the spawns needs to be looked into, but I will need quest and monster names to look into them :)
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It's not one spawn, it's been every single fight since I started playing here again. No matter your ac, and their you will get hit a non zero amount of times and you will need healing. Usually 2-6 times during a fight, even at +2 ab and 28 AC (with expertise). It prompted me to make a character with high HP and I still get into injured remarkably easily.
I'll run some numbers after I get off work, but my suggestion stands.
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I'm more thinking general overall edits, rather than specific monsters.
Such as reducing the amount of spawn, looking into the amount of AB on certain monsters such as gnolls, etc. Or a good quest example, like maybe Farm Infestation where maybe the wolves have too much HP.
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I think that Expertise shouldn't break when you heal. It's a defensive stance not a spell you're interrupting by glugging potions.
"Hold on, I know I am in a super defensive stance but pouring this potion over my wounds requires me to stand completely still like an idiot."
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As a player I see it as a most acceptable solution. No matter the balance, situations like these is inevitable. And raising damage to avoid such a situation by destroying the enemy is an optimal solution, except when you are swarmed by non-great-cleavable enemies. By adjusting the balance to make all monsters hit less often you will make them easier to "tank" for both 2h demolishers and beefy tanks. Taking into account feat starvation of the low level range it makes sense to reward beefy characters to take expertise. Just my opinion.
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I was talking to someone who mentioned that the problem with it is that it became the path to massive healing with no penalty or downside. Finding a suitable cap to it (like say half your total HP max under super ideal conditions) would have to be considered, for sure.
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Hp is already nerfed. Protective consumables are already limited. Access to spells not castable by yourself or expensive/rare consumables has been removed. There is no reason to also make it harder to get back on your feet when you're beat down by nerfing healing -which is already rare and expensive- as well. What limiting to half the total hp would do is have no effect on higher level fighter types, but would crush low hp classes like bard and such who are trying to emergency heal, or low levels who are trying to use a moderate/serious healing potion or even their OH SHIT cure crit they might have gotten from an event.
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Fighters suffer the most. Make it a pure fighter perk that they can heal behind expertise.
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@SpiffyMeister said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
Fighters suffer the most. Make it a pure fighter perk that they can heal behind expertise.
Discipline stones used to make pure fighters way more viable for that reason
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The server's experimented with Fighter specific discipline stones, which healed for more than potions and cost less on average. It was tested with it not breaking stances, and with it breaking stances. Then Martial Stones were introduced for all martial classes that can neither UMD nor use wands. With martial stones, a level scaling was introduced rather than a skill based scaling.
After testing 4 different variations of fighter and martial class specific healing. It was pretty much concluded that if you could maintain stances while using affordable (and powerful healing) Tanks were way waaaaaaay too tough to deal with.
Think of it this way, with enough hp, AC, and powerful healing. If a dm wants to make you feel challenged on an event, they're going to have to introduce more "Save or die" mechanics, because those'll be the only viable methods remaining to deal with your turtleshell defense.
No one finds dying to "save or lose" mechanics fun. If healing breaks stances, you have to be more tactical about when/where you heal, tanking doesn't just become "get imp expertise and a lot of constitution, done"
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This I fully recognize as a problem which is why I suggested something akin to half-healing. Enough to keep you alive but not enough to make you fully viable again, you also run the risk of getting one shotted when something breaks out a crit chain or something. There's risk to it but the benefit is not getting slaughtered because you're taking on an enemy with substantially higher ab or multiple enemies.
There is no tactic a fighter has to mitigate incoming damage aside from jacking up your ac (hard to do in this nearly vacant consumable space), killing it first, or running away. The knock on consequence of this is that you wind up spending more on consumables which are already prohibitively expensive in many cases, or just scrapping it and going cleric because they can steamroll things you can't and heal the damage afterwards. Until their blessings run out, anyway.
I think a half or 3/4ths healing is a good balance point for the risks and pitfalls of being a fighter in general. AC's are generally low enough that an Expertise fighter is a boon to a party without being as obstructive to a DM as someone with 3 apr at +25 or better. They can still be killed without having to make a damage soak NPC, the math will always favor multiple attackers against one defender.
If the party isn't supporting that defender, they will die regardless of a quick surge of healing while the +25 killer is still going to be damned effective at mitigating incoming damage by applying the 'death' status effect. :P
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We could introduce a temporary hp thing called second wind, gives them 20 temp hp...?
:thinking_face:
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Temporary hp is a fun mechanic. Barbarians should also gain temp hp instead of flat con bonus, and anything meant to make someone hardy temporarily and take hits and increases con should be temp hp instead of con tbh.
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Ok, i'll try to be nice....But what on earth am i reading here in terms of solutions? Temporary HP and other such stuff? Why does it seem to be a running trend to make fixes to what ought to be simple problems, as complicated as possible?
FIRST question you need to ask yourself is: Do you WANT to make healing break expertise, yes or no?
If not, then the answer is to make damn sure you have a pocket healer you trust.
If you do, then you make an item that works like that.Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not complicate this to the point where if you want to alter it in the future, it will be impossible because it'll be a clusterfuck of a network with 30 interworking wheels.
If you feel a class or melee characters in general are lacking in HP... you have a system in place that reduces their HP, you could change that instead of adding something that complicates the balance you're currently working on tenfold
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@CitizenBane said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
FIRST question you need to ask yourself is: Do you WANT to make healing break expertise, yes or no?
If not, then the answer is to make damn sure you have a pocket healer you trust.
If you do, then you make an item that works like that.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not complicate this to the point where if you want to alter it in the future, it will be impossible because it'll be a clusterfuck of a network with 30 interworking wheels.+1
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@Echo said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
@CitizenBane said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
FIRST question you need to ask yourself is: Do you WANT to make healing break expertise, yes or no?
If not, then the answer is to make damn sure you have a pocket healer you trust.
If you do, then you make an item that works like that.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not complicate this to the point where if you want to alter it in the future, it will be impossible because it'll be a clusterfuck of a network with 30 interworking wheels.+1
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Expertise was always meant to be an oh shit button, if healing items are designed to work with expertise. It stops being an oh shit button or trump card, and instead becomes a playstyle.
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Monsters shouldn't be balanced around oh shit buttons and trump cards, because not everyone has the same oh shit buttons..
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Monsters should be balanced around playstyles.
- If a monster is balanced around the idea that people have +10 ac, then people can no longer tank without taking those two feats and having 13 intelligence. This isn't good for classes that can't afford to do that.
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Oh, about +10 AC. Throw stones at me if you want but I am pretty sure that IE should be disabled on level 10 and below servers.
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@Arcanigans said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
There is no tactic a fighter has to mitigate incoming damage aside from jacking up your ac (hard to do in this nearly vacant consumable space), killing it first, or running away. The knock on consequence of this is that you wind up spending more on consumables which are already prohibitively expensive in many cases, or just scrapping it and going cleric because they can steamroll things you can't and heal the damage afterwards. Until their blessings run out, anyway.
^ This. We're in an AC tank meta where the only people able to buff their AC are clerics, who don't encounter these sorts of problems, or having a pocket mage to buff you - which means we're back in the buff meta.