Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.
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@SpiffyMeister said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
Fighters suffer the most. Make it a pure fighter perk that they can heal behind expertise.
Discipline stones used to make pure fighters way more viable for that reason
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The server's experimented with Fighter specific discipline stones, which healed for more than potions and cost less on average. It was tested with it not breaking stances, and with it breaking stances. Then Martial Stones were introduced for all martial classes that can neither UMD nor use wands. With martial stones, a level scaling was introduced rather than a skill based scaling.
After testing 4 different variations of fighter and martial class specific healing. It was pretty much concluded that if you could maintain stances while using affordable (and powerful healing) Tanks were way waaaaaaay too tough to deal with.
Think of it this way, with enough hp, AC, and powerful healing. If a dm wants to make you feel challenged on an event, they're going to have to introduce more "Save or die" mechanics, because those'll be the only viable methods remaining to deal with your turtleshell defense.
No one finds dying to "save or lose" mechanics fun. If healing breaks stances, you have to be more tactical about when/where you heal, tanking doesn't just become "get imp expertise and a lot of constitution, done"
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This I fully recognize as a problem which is why I suggested something akin to half-healing. Enough to keep you alive but not enough to make you fully viable again, you also run the risk of getting one shotted when something breaks out a crit chain or something. There's risk to it but the benefit is not getting slaughtered because you're taking on an enemy with substantially higher ab or multiple enemies.
There is no tactic a fighter has to mitigate incoming damage aside from jacking up your ac (hard to do in this nearly vacant consumable space), killing it first, or running away. The knock on consequence of this is that you wind up spending more on consumables which are already prohibitively expensive in many cases, or just scrapping it and going cleric because they can steamroll things you can't and heal the damage afterwards. Until their blessings run out, anyway.
I think a half or 3/4ths healing is a good balance point for the risks and pitfalls of being a fighter in general. AC's are generally low enough that an Expertise fighter is a boon to a party without being as obstructive to a DM as someone with 3 apr at +25 or better. They can still be killed without having to make a damage soak NPC, the math will always favor multiple attackers against one defender.
If the party isn't supporting that defender, they will die regardless of a quick surge of healing while the +25 killer is still going to be damned effective at mitigating incoming damage by applying the 'death' status effect. :P
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We could introduce a temporary hp thing called second wind, gives them 20 temp hp...?
:thinking_face:
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Temporary hp is a fun mechanic. Barbarians should also gain temp hp instead of flat con bonus, and anything meant to make someone hardy temporarily and take hits and increases con should be temp hp instead of con tbh.
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Ok, i'll try to be nice....But what on earth am i reading here in terms of solutions? Temporary HP and other such stuff? Why does it seem to be a running trend to make fixes to what ought to be simple problems, as complicated as possible?
FIRST question you need to ask yourself is: Do you WANT to make healing break expertise, yes or no?
If not, then the answer is to make damn sure you have a pocket healer you trust.
If you do, then you make an item that works like that.Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not complicate this to the point where if you want to alter it in the future, it will be impossible because it'll be a clusterfuck of a network with 30 interworking wheels.
If you feel a class or melee characters in general are lacking in HP... you have a system in place that reduces their HP, you could change that instead of adding something that complicates the balance you're currently working on tenfold
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@CitizenBane said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
FIRST question you need to ask yourself is: Do you WANT to make healing break expertise, yes or no?
If not, then the answer is to make damn sure you have a pocket healer you trust.
If you do, then you make an item that works like that.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not complicate this to the point where if you want to alter it in the future, it will be impossible because it'll be a clusterfuck of a network with 30 interworking wheels.+1
"You can complain if you weren't asked; you can't complain if you were asked but didn't contribute." ~ Professor.
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@Echo said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
@CitizenBane said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
FIRST question you need to ask yourself is: Do you WANT to make healing break expertise, yes or no?
If not, then the answer is to make damn sure you have a pocket healer you trust.
If you do, then you make an item that works like that.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not complicate this to the point where if you want to alter it in the future, it will be impossible because it'll be a clusterfuck of a network with 30 interworking wheels.+1
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Expertise was always meant to be an oh shit button, if healing items are designed to work with expertise. It stops being an oh shit button or trump card, and instead becomes a playstyle.
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Monsters shouldn't be balanced around oh shit buttons and trump cards, because not everyone has the same oh shit buttons..
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Monsters should be balanced around playstyles.
- If a monster is balanced around the idea that people have +10 ac, then people can no longer tank without taking those two feats and having 13 intelligence. This isn't good for classes that can't afford to do that.
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Oh, about +10 AC. Throw stones at me if you want but I am pretty sure that IE should be disabled on level 10 and below servers.
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@Arcanigans said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
There is no tactic a fighter has to mitigate incoming damage aside from jacking up your ac (hard to do in this nearly vacant consumable space), killing it first, or running away. The knock on consequence of this is that you wind up spending more on consumables which are already prohibitively expensive in many cases, or just scrapping it and going cleric because they can steamroll things you can't and heal the damage afterwards. Until their blessings run out, anyway.
^ This. We're in an AC tank meta where the only people able to buff their AC are clerics, who don't encounter these sorts of problems, or having a pocket mage to buff you - which means we're back in the buff meta.
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If monsters are hitting too often then their AB needs to be looked at
If monsters are doing too high a percentage of hp per hit then DMG needs to be looked at
Consumables are supposed to be rare/expensive so they are a “holy shit button” @Chips :trade_mark: intending to deal with major obstacles. They can make the general stuff easier but the trade off is gp for easier xp.
Fighters will be getting kits (same with Barbs and Monks) as a priority to help offset current deficiency and add some thematic flavour.
PC crafting is being worked on and will be implemented as soon as we can to allow for slightly lower cost consumables
Potions and wands are being made and added to stores with price tweaking as we go to find the sweet spot between cost, availability and need. We are trying to move away from the required potion chug before every quest.
Quests are constantly being tweaked regarding loot provides, gold given and overall challenge.
That’s how we are going to make things balanced. Not adding stuff to fix a problem that is only a problem because other things are not in place.
I am not in favour of healing not breaking expertise. As Apple said it will just become “the proper way to play a fighter/tank” instead of a possible choice. Having that as a kit feature would be plenty cool though.
In short we know there is still a lot of work to be done so thanks for the continued patience.
Retired
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@Prof-Misclick said in Healing for fighters that doesn't break expertiese.:
If monsters are hitting too often then their AB needs to be looked at
If monsters are doing too high a percentage of hp per hit then DMG needs to be looked at
Consumables are supposed to be rare/expensive so they are a “holy shit button” @Chips :trade_mark: intending to deal with major obstacles. They can make the general stuff easier but the trade off is gp for easier xp.
Fighters will be getting kits (same with Barbs and Monks) as a priority to help offset current deficiency and add some thematic flavour.
PC crafting is being worked on and will be implemented as soon as we can to allow for slightly lower cost consumables
Potions and wands are being made and added to stores with price tweaking as we go to find the sweet spot between cost, availability and need. We are trying to move away from the required potion chug before every quest.
Quests are constantly being tweaked regarding loot provides, gold given and overall challenge.
That’s how we are going to make things balanced. Not adding stuff to fix a problem that is only a problem because other things are not in place.
I am not in favour of healing not breaking expertise. As Apple said it will just become “the proper way to play a fighter/tank” instead of a possible choice. Having that as a kit feature would be plenty cool though.
In short we know there is still a lot of work to be done so thanks for the continued patience.
I agree, i think healing should break expertise.
