Remove GSF Abjuration bonuses from Mage Armor

Zap

Shield was Given a Substantial Buff with SF, GSF and Wizard Specialization in Abjuration, as an Abjurer being less capable of Defending themself than a Non Abjurer didn't make sense, and the Loss of Mage Armour from Specializing put Abjurers at equal or lower AC to Non Abjurers.

Giving 3/+1 DR for the full duration of Mage Armour with GSF Abjuration turns that back around and makes not specializing the better defensive choice, as an hour/level of DR is superior to turn/level of +2 AC in most cases, and no other GSF Abjuration bonuses require Specializing, so your only loss is 2ac for otherwise keeping all the benefits of being an Abjurer and then more on top.

Edit:
Breaking it down here because apparently my explaination isn't plain enough.

Mage Armor: +4 Armor AC [Does not stack with armor bonus.]
GSF Abjuration: 3/+1 DR <--- Suggestion is Remove this part
GSF Conjuration: +1 Additional Armor for a total of +5 Armor AC
Shield: +4 deflection AC;
SF Abjuration: Gain +2 Armor AC;
GSF Abjuration: Gain additional +2 Armor AC. [+4 Armor AC in total]
Abjuration Specialist Wizard: Additional +2 Armor AC [+6 Armor AC in total w/GSF Abjuration]
Armor Bonus from SF/GSF/Abjuration School does not stack with other Armor bonuses

Even without providing Armor AC because of Shield providing it, Hour/Level 3/+1 is better than 2 extra AC at Turn/Level.

GSF Abjuration with no Specialty is Better Defensively than with Abjuration Specialty, as you still get every other Defensive Benefit of GSF Abjuration, plus the Defensive Benefits of Conjuration, and only lose 2 AC.

toportime

@zap Not exactly, the bonuses to Shield for Specialization, SF/GSF do not stack with Mage armor.

Zap

@toportime

Even without providing Armor AC because of Shield providing it, Hour/Level 3/+1 is better than 2 extra AC at Turn/Level.

SpiffyMeister

Probably should be done yea.

Puffy

@Prof-Misclick can you look at this

Prof. Misclick

Opening a discussion topic on the DM forums. Thanks for bringing this up!

Burgesse

So is the problem that wizard spell schools don't provide better options then? Because from what I see, that might be the actual problem, rather than nerfing a spell that is incredibly helpful to the squishiest classes in a low hp server.

Zap

@burgesse The bonus in this case is excessive. 3/+1 for hour/level is essentially the most commonly useful part of Blur at a longer duration, with a lower slot, able to be cast on anyone.

Burgesse

@zap

Anyone who doesn't wear armor. So the only people who's really benefit would be people who don't wear any.

Zap

@burgesse Summons. Undead. Plenty of Rogues, Monks, anyone who was using 4/4 armor anyway (I'm sure they exist somewhere).

Burgesse

@zap
Anyone who uses 4/4 ? Sure, if they're willing to put 2 feats and a level into caster for it and yes, it's Hour/level. So you start to get good use after 3~ levels in the caster class.

Rogues? Again, 2 feats and a crossclass of 2-3. Unless you just happen to be in the party, but you'd be better off with a blur potion.

Summons and undead. Perhaps the only case you can make that argument.
However, you STILL need 2 feats for the abjuration, so you're either specced into summoning late (or about lvl 6 for a wizard), in which cast 3/1 only provides some staying power and the summons will vanish well before the MA wears off.

Undead? Okay. Sure. But undead have all their own weird and wonderful bonuses already, have Stone Bones to up their ac, and if you're going necromancy, you're STILL putting 2 feats into something that makes 1 spell useful, but not game breaking.

Never mind that negative energy also heals your undead, so there is less reason to bother with 3/1 protection.

At the end of the day, Either you're a conjuration wizard who picks up abjuration too, or an abjuration wizard, who takes up summoning/necromancy.

Zap

This post is deleted!

Zap

@burgesse Very little on the server will be done solo. Having a buddy to provide buffs is common, and most casters will have at least one gsf.

A sorcerer with GSF Abjuration can give long lasting AC and DR to an entire party plus any Summons, undead or animal companions they may have with almost no resources Cost as it used their fastest regenerating and most numerous spell slot.

Burgesse

I would say you play in a populated timezone then. Don't try and use the 'just party up' line.

If you're going to use the argument that 'you can just buff other players/summons' then I'm going to counter with 'yes, and?' The 'party buffbot' can be anything then and again, this sorcerer is investing 2 of their 4-5 feats for a single spell that is really only effective at the lower levels anyway.

Druid can rest pretty much anywhere.
Cleric has great options
Wizard has better ones
Sorceror has ~10 spells total at lvl 9. Thats it.

3/1 isn't game breaking even if you build your character around it. It might be a little stronger but again, there is serious investment for it.

If the idea of a spell that is lvl 1 is actually worthwhile taking spell focus feats for isn't cutting it, then change it to target self only and make a higher level version that targets others. Call it Greater Mage Armor or something.

That would fix every issue while still making the spell useful for self protection.

(Also, what 'resource cost' is this? Spell slots? Prior to the spell regeneration, I'm pretty sure sorcerers would be as rare as a lawful rogue.)

Zap

@burgesse said in Remove GSF Abjuration bonuses from Mage Armor:

I would say you play in a populated timezone then. Don't try and use the 'just party up' line.

Spells can't just be balanced around their effectiveness to solo play.

If you're going to use the argument that 'you can just buff other players/summons' then I'm going to counter with 'yes, and?' The 'party buffbot' can be anything then and again, this sorcerer is investing 2 of their 4-5 feats for a single spell that is really only effective at the lower levels anyway.

3/1 isn't game breaking even if you build your character around it. It might be a little stronger but again, there is serious investment for it.

It's half a blur spell (one of the most commonly used potions), with a massive duration and a cheap slot. And GFS abju provides a large helping of defensive benefits besides.

If the idea of a spell that is lvl 1 is so intensely painful, then change it to target self only and make a higher level version that targets others. Call it Greater Mage Armor or something.

That would fix every issue while still making the spell useful for self protection.

It wouldn't fix the initial issue raised, and making a whole new spell is far more work than simply reverting a change.

(Also, what 'resource cost' is this? Spell slots? Prior to the spell regeneration, I'm pretty sure sorcerers would be as rare as a lawful rogue.)

And yet Sorcerers do now have spell regeneration, and therefore it needs to be taken into account. How balanced it would be prior to spell regen is somewhat irrelevant.

Burgesse

@zap

Spells can't just be balanced around their effectiveness to solo play.

Spells can't just be balanced around their effectiveness to group play either.

It's half a blur spell (one of the most commonly used potions), with a massive duration and a cheap slot. And GFS abju provides a large helping of defensive benefits besides.

Blur also gives 20% concealment and half a blur spell is a lvl 1 spell. Yes, it lasts longer, but Blur also doesn't need 2 feats and is widely available.

And of course GSF Abjuration gives benefits. It should considering it's two feats. As well, the 3/1 only comes from the sorcerer, the effect doesn't come from a wand or potion.

It wouldn't fix the initial issue raised, and making a whole new spell is far more work than simply reverting a change.

The initial issue is that 'a 1st lvl spell that gives +4 ac also gives 3/1 dr after 2 feats.'
Considering that GSF conjuration not only gives vastly longer lasting summons but also additional ones, I'd argue that putting a lot of focus into something should give you something. Yes, abjuration gives you other stuff, but that isn't the focus of this debate.

At the end of the day, for a large expenditure, you get a useful buff to a spell. Yes, that spell can be used on summons. (Who don't last nearly as long.) and undead (who require extra steps but heal with negative energy) and other party members (Who don't use armor.) but I still argue that the bonus it gives isn't wildly powerful when you put it up against your complaint.

And yet Sorcerers do now have spell regeneration, and therefore it needs to be taken into account. How balanced it would be prior to spell regen is somewhat irrelevant.

It is very much worth taking into account. Half the argument here is about how sorcerers can spam it. If they lacked regenerating spells, would it still be as powerful? No. Because now you have a character with just as much staying power as any other caster, but far less versatility. At that point, you might as well play a wizard.

Specialization should have benefits. SF abjuration doesn't give it anything so you need the full spec to get the buff.

The benefit it gives is not 'broken' or 'op' and without it, all abjuration does is mildly improve your elemental resist spells and leave Shield still equally average.

Do not punish every caster simply because one class can make slightly better use.

SpiffyMeister

When the spell buffs were put up for discussion, the intention was to make Abjurers, a specialization, who oddly ought to be the best at protecting themselves, significantly better. I honestly can't recall the justification for the mage armor buff for GSF Abjuration providing 3/+1 DR.

Conjurors are already /extremely fucking good/ and i don't really wish to see them having another one-up on the poor, abused abjuror.

Zap

@burgesse said in Remove GSF Abjuration bonuses from Mage Armor:

Do not punish every caster simply because one class can make slightly better use.

Which is it? A niche benefit of a 2 feat investment or something that will negatively impact every caster of its removed?

Burgesse

@zap

It's both.

GSF Abjuration's perks give casters a reliable protection that isn't spamming short term buffs or invis. In PvE, it gives a modest shield to massed arrows when the AI decides 'low hp = prime target'. In PvP it doesn't do much. But pvp usually boils down to who has more potions of heal.

Remove it and you've got...better elemental protection... iron gut... and shield.

Taking the perk away makes conjuration the better option unless you're aiming for high dc's.

You've really only got DC casters, enchantment, abjuration and conjuration/necromancy. All these provide an actual style of play.

Transmutation, Illusion, Divination and evocation* are all very niche in terms of SF benefits.

*Evocation less so since fireballs are a valid style.

So yes. Removing it would negatively impact every caster unless there is some other reason to take it.

I've said my piece.

Zap

@burgesse conjuration should be the better option for mage armour. Its a conjuration spell for whatever reason. The fact gsf abju was providing it to a conj spell lost to abju specialists was the point in the first place.