Sorcerers
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We are looking at doing some fun stuff for Sorcerers and want to hear for you. What we are looking for is
- What are some of the biggest challenges for Sorcerers?
- What are some ideas for kits/archetypes/bloodlines that would change how the sorcerer plays and be fun?
2a. Please include a brief summary of what it would look like (Addition Spells, modified feats, skills, abilities etc)
Happy Gaming!
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Basically wizards with less bells and whistles, and without a proper faction. CHA is much harder for certain groups too. So Kenku sorc makes sense but they are being pushed toward wizard. Half-orc too. Likewise, only a few races get a CHA boost so no natural sorcs.
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Kits? I'd give each race one or two kits, largely to make up for the deficits, e.g., Orc sorc might get a boost to CHA or some kind of boost to spell slots or spells to make up for the loss in CHA.
Other than that witch kit, pyromancer kit, etc works
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My biggest issue with sorcerers has always been that wizards are just flat out better. Sorcs get less feats, less skills (due to being CHA based), no flexibility, and often as many spell slots due to the proliferation of wizard slot gear (they should have more).
They fixed this in 5E by giving only sorcerers metamagic. Maybe sorcerers should get metamagic every 3 levels.
I'm also all for predetermined spell lists (aka kits) that give additional passive bonuses.
Geomancer
Aquamancer
Pyromancer
Skymancer (Wind + Elec)
Feyblood
Shadowmancer
Escritorian (Rune-based)
Golemancer -
I'd say the sorcerer's greatest weakness is lack of flexibility through limited spells. If there was a way to give them extra spells known that would be a huge help. Kits that grant special abilities as well as bonus known spells would be huge. What may be more simple is to give sorcerors the "mandatory" spells that every spellcaster needs to shine for free as bonus spells. Mage armor and that sort of thing. I'm not sure if that could really be done or not though.
I've got lots of ideas for kits.
NULL SORCERER
Certain sorcerers boast a unique ability to nullify magic. Whether it is from some mysterious bloodline or magical scarring, or even a blight upon servants of Mystra, is unclear. What is clear is that magic has a way of just not working around them.
The kit should include GSF Abjuration, +3 (maybe even +5?) Spellcraft, and maybe a 1/day greater dispel once they hit level 8 or so.
If it's possible to give them lesser dispel, dispel, and so in for free as a spell known, even better.
The whole kit should be built around dispels and counterspelling.
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WILDFIRE SORCERER
Pyromancers are of course well known, the masters of smoke and flame are infamous for their destructive capability, but few willingly partake in the usage of wildfire magic, due to it's own unstable and unpredictable nature.
Burning hands, burning bolt, fireball, flame arrow, etc, are granted to the sorcerer freely.
Chance to combust on hit, for everything. If the wildfire sorc casts on someone else, hostile spell or beneficial, there's a chance it will additionally cast combust. There's also a chance the sorcerer himself will also combust. Also if anyone hits the sorcerer they too may suffer the effects of combust. Fire. Fire everywhere. Fireballs should result in an additional mass combust effect on everyone involved.
-5 concentration
Empower spell for free.
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Wizards can prep spells for whatever they're doing, which has a lot of ramifications both for adventuring as well as RP. As others have said, the sorcerer "pick spells and live with it" is somewhat lacking. I think the balance would come from making those spells more plentiful and/or more powerful, perhaps with that *mancy focus suggested by Crystal.
One other thing - maybe it's just me, but I see sorcerers more as an offensive weapon than wizards in terms of RP, especially with mastery over an element. In that case, there would perhaps be an effect like "lots and lots of poweerrr...oh shit it's an AC-less guy with a crossbow". Mages are similar, I suppose, but again, with the ability to change the spellbook they can at least tailor them to a specific use case.
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A sorc's weakness in such a low level setting is twofold:
Feats - Sorcs don't gain a free class feat every 5 levels like a wiz does.By level 9 a non-human sorc only has 4 feats. Two of which will be taken up with a Greater Spell focus, leaving only 2 more. They can grab 2 Spell Foci, 2 meta magic or another Greater Spell Focus or a mixture of mete + SF.
They have very few choices to make what few spells they have flexible.
This is an issue because sorcerers are supposed to be inflexible regarding what spells they know, but extremely flexible in casting those spells. Currently wizards are more flexible at both. A human wizard at Level 10 has 7 feats.Choice of spells - Casters start to sharply rise in power at lvl 9 usually. This is because wizards get access to 5th circle where they can learn any and all 5th circle spells. Clerics get their 5th circle spells. Druids get theirs too.
Sorcerers will spend ages working from lvl 8, where they got their first 4th circle spell, to hit lvl 9 and get... another 4th circle spell.
Once they hit 10, which is the server's cap and only supposed to be done regularly by a few, they get their first 5th circle spell. They're still miles behind wizards until about level 12 where they become equal in power.To fix these, I think kits need to focus on granting sorcerers feats and a bonus spell at each odd level. i.e. 9th lvl sorc gains their first 5th circle spell related to their kit.
The trouble with that would be that they may not have the spellslot to use the spell at that level, so I'm not sure it's possible.
If DMs didn't want to give feats determined by kits, I like Crystal's idea with free metamagic feats, but they would have to be closer to a wizard's class feat progression at either 1/4 levels or 1/5 levels.My kit I'd suggest would obviously be Ooze Savant/Cultist. I'm sure Spiffy already knows what to do with it >_>
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In the current settings, I would agree they do not get enough spell slot considering they get their spells 1 level behind all other classes.
For me, the only issues I really have with sorcerers is their epic squishiness. But that's me. >_>
@petey512 said in Sorcerers:
NULL SORCERER
What I like to call a counterspeller or a magebreaker.
For the kit, I would go with GSF Abju, bonus to spell craft and access to universal counters. (aka, make new hak spells).
Right now, the universal counter are lesser dispel, dispel and greater dispel. Which leaves some circle with no universal counters. I would see spells added via hak for those circles.
Level 1: Minor dispel (new)
Level 2: Lesser dispel (existing)
Level 3: Dispel Magic (existing)
Level 4: Either make dismissal or lesser spell breach a universal counter, or add a new one. Major Dispel?
Level 5: Greater Dispel (existing)
Level 6: Either make banishment or greater spell breach or add a new one. Mass Dispel?As for kits/archetype/bloodlines, what I would like to see is:
Elemental sorcerers (Pyromancer?, Frostwalker?, Windrider?, Earthbender?)
Dragonblooded
Feydancer
Chaosborn -
I think that we should just let players flavor their choices however they want, and instead just give Sorcerers an option to focus on a specific school.
There's a couple ways to do this. Either give them free feats, or have their spells of the selected school automatically become affected by their school's metamagic selection.
As examples off the top of my head:
Evokers either get Empower Spell for free or have their spells automatically empowered (But you cannot empower twice.)
Conjurers get Extended Spells
Transmuters get Maximized or Extended spells
Necromancers get Empowered Spells
Diviners get... Something. Noone plays diviners anyway.
Abjurers get Extend Spell
Illusionists get Silent SpellThis will be powerful, but Sorcerers really do need the boost. More importantly it allows players to flavor their particular brand of sorcerer as they see fit without being constrained to pre-determined templates.
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I dont think the metamagic feats are that powerful tbh. Some are straight up not useful.
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Extend and Empower are really good, the rest would find trouble being useful in our level ranges.
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@petey512 said in Sorcerers:
I dont think the metamagic feats are that powerful tbh. Some are straight up not useful.
I'd take a 5th circle spell at 9 over nearly all metamagic feats. They need decent abilities, particularly around 8 or 9 or it will be too much of a slog.
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@Miss_Behaviour said in Sorcerers:
To fix these, I think kits need to focus on granting sorcerers feats and a bonus spell at each odd level. i.e. 9th lvl sorc gains their first 5th circle spell related to their kit.
The trouble with that would be that they may not have the spellslot to use the spell at that level, so I'm not sure it's possible.
If DMs didn't want to give feats determined by kits, I like Crystal's idea with free metamagic feats, but they would have to be closer to a wizard's class feat progression at either 1/4 levels or 1/5 levels.How easy is it to import a domain system like they have for clerics, where certain spells are given lower circle magic (e.g., endurance for suffering is 1st circle not 2nd, etc)
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giving sorcerers something to make them more universal, in my opinion, is like missing the whole point of the class. Wizards is universal casters. Sorcerers is heavy specialized casters due to amount of their spells. I think that their kits should push their specialization further, making them really good at one specific task.
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@Walrus-Warwagon +1 on that thought. I like the idea of kits that build on a theme.
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@Walrus-Warwagon said in Sorcerers:
giving sorcerers something to make them more universal, in my opinion, is like missing the whole point of the class. Wizards is universal casters. Sorcerers is heavy specialized casters due to amount of their spells. I think that their kits should push their specialization further, making them really good at one specific task.
Well yes, but it would still mean access to spells at lower circles I suspect
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I don't have a lot of input for sorcerers, but I'd give them significantly more spells per day than the wizard. I would also give them some stronger offensive cantrips that scale with level. Maybe they can get spell mastery with certain spells and cast them per day more often or even unlimited amounts of time?
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@Walrus-Warwagon said in Sorcerers:
giving sorcerers something to make them more universal, in my opinion, is like missing the whole point of the class. Wizards is universal casters. Sorcerers is heavy specialized casters due to amount of their spells. I think that their kits should push their specialization further, making them really good at one specific task.
This is what I would much rather see, instead of compensating sorcerers for being different than wizards.
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@Bowser this is the way.
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@Bowser said in Sorcerers:
@Walrus-Warwagon said in Sorcerers:
giving sorcerers something to make them more universal, in my opinion, is like missing the whole point of the class. Wizards is universal casters. Sorcerers is heavy specialized casters due to amount of their spells. I think that their kits should push their specialization further, making them really good at one specific task.
This is what I would much rather see, instead of compensating sorcerers for being different than wizards.
Yup! This.
